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Topic: SOLVED: No power getting to the thermostat

Posted By: rejesterd on 05/16/20 12:55pm

SOLVED: It was a short somewhere between the blue wires at the furnace and the tstat. Refer to this post

Hi All,

1997 Terry 30g RV with an Atwood 8531-III DCLP furnace and a Coleman 7300 air conditioner.

I just opened up my camper for this season, and found that power is not getting to the thermostat. The heat, AC nor the fan work. The last time this occurred, it was due to the small 2A fuse on the thermostat itself. However, i removed it today and it has continuity and the connection points look clean. This is an older Coleman thermostat..

[image]

I can confirm that I get 13.something volts at the circuit breaker on the furnace.

[image]

I checked the voltage at all 3 connection points to that breaker (the 2 red wires and the blue wire).

What would be the next step to troubleshoot this further?

Thanks as always.

* This post was last edited 05/20/20 09:04am by rejesterd *


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/16/20 03:21pm

You need a ground to get the 12v on a meter at the tstat, The two blues from the furnace are actually cut and joined at the tstat switch in a heat only. with an air conditioner it seems the wires all go to a relay up thee and back so it is red and white. Anyway, you can confirm the furnace works down at the furnace by jumpering the blues that would go to the tstat (but somehow get to the red and white on yours I think)

Too confusing, but here is a thread on that that might help including links to trouble shooting.

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea........d/tid/30000743/srt/pa/pging/1/page/4.cfm


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on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.


Posted By: Old-Biscuit on 05/16/20 04:30pm

That On/Off CB Switch has 3 wires
RED and BLUE on one terminal and then RED on other terminal

RED/Blue....red is 12VDC + from DC Dist Panel (FUSED)
Blue sends 12VDC+ to the thermostat

RED on other side goes to Timed Delay Relay.
When Thermostat closes then 12VDC+ goes to coil side of Timed Delay Relay which allows the 12VDC+ on RED to go to Fan Motor

So you should have 12VDC + on RED/Blue at the On/Off Switch and on the RED from Switch to the Time Delay Relay (Green Box)

Yellow is NEG/Ground

[image]


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Posted By: rejesterd on 05/16/20 04:41pm

Old-Biscuit wrote:

That On/Off CB Switch has 3 wires
RED and BLUE on one terminal and then RED on other terminal

RED/Blue....red is 12VDC + from DC Dist Panel (FUSED)
Blue sends 12VDC+ to the thermostat

RED on other side goes to Timed Delay Relay.
When Thermostat closes then 12VDC+ goes to coil side of Timed Delay Relay which allows the 12VDC+ on RED to go to Fan Motor

So you should have 12VDC + on RED/Blue at the On/Off Switch and on the RED from Switch to the Time Delay Relay (Green Box)

Yellow is NEG/Ground


I have 13V at the 2 red wires and the blue wire shown in the above picture. Not sure what to check next.

I forgot to mention that the AC nor the fan for the AC work either.


Posted By: Old-Biscuit on 05/16/20 10:11pm

13V on Blue wire..that goes to the thermostat
Remove cover on thermostat
Connect the 2 blue wires togther.furnace should come on
Connect the blue wire (one from furnace on/off switch) to Yellow wire and A/C Unit should come on

Thermostat is bad if in Cool or Heat modes A/C or Furnace do not work


See pg 14 and 15....Flow chart for Heat Mode and Cool Mode
Coleman Thermostat Info


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 06:13am

Old-Biscuit wrote:

Connect the 2 blue wires togther.furnace should come on
Connect the blue wire (one from furnace on/off switch) to Yellow wire and A/C Unit should come on


BFL13 wrote:

you can confirm the furnace works down at the furnace by jumpering the blues that would go to the tstat (but somehow get to the red and white on yours I think)


Ok, I'm slowly getting this. I've actually looked at the manual Old-Biscuit linked before, but I don't have 2 blue wires. Here's the thermostat wiring.

[image]

So there's one of each: blue, red, white, yellow, gray, and green. It's hard to see from the picture, but there is also another red wire inside the wall that is connected to another very small gauge red wire with a wire nut. Neither of these appear to be connected to the thermostat. Also, there are 2 purple wires coming from the thermostat that have been cut and taped over. I haven't done anything to the wiring here, so this is the way it's been for years (and the system has worked generally well for the most part).

Based on what I'm reading in the manual, it seems that if I connect red to green or red to gray, that should operate the fan only. And connecting red to yellow & green, that would operate the AC at low speed. And connecting red to white would run the furnace.

Is that correct? Thanks so much.


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/17/20 07:24am

I don't know which wires do what in that photo, but before removing any, make very sure you know where each goes for when putting it back!!

I think you need to find the place up where the relay is for the air conditioner to see if there is 12v at that location. I got the idea the 12v for the tstat comes from up there where a click can be heard, but not sure. The pros here will be able to say what to do now.


Posted By: dougrainer on 05/17/20 07:28am

1. You have NOT removed all the wires from the hole for the Tstat.
2. You will NOT have "blue" wires at the tstat. The Blue wires are the 2 just for the furnace AT the furnace that go to the wall tstat and return
3. Most OEM's use standard home type Tstat multistrand wire to connect the Roof AC and to the furnace.
4. Usually they use the small 20 gauge wires---red and white to go from the furnace to the wall tstat.
5. When you have your type tstat, the one blue wire at the furnace that is 12 volt, it goes to the Roof AC control board in the AC. THAT wire is what supplies 12 volt power to the Roof AC control board and then DOWN to the wall tstsat. On other models, the blue 12 v wire goes to the wall tstat and then another wire then feeds the Roof AC for 12 volt power to the Roof AC. You need to get all the wires out of that small hole in the wall and odds are you will see a wire not connected. Doug


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 08:05am

dougrainer wrote:

1. You have NOT removed all the wires from the hole for the Tstat.
2. You will NOT have "blue" wires at the tstat. The Blue wires are the 2 just for the furnace AT the furnace that go to the wall tstat and return
3. Most OEM's use standard home type Tstat multistrand wire to connect the Roof AC and to the furnace.
4. Usually they use the small 20 gauge wires---red and white to go from the furnace to the wall tstat.
5. When you have your type tstat, the one blue wire at the furnace that is 12 volt, it goes to the Roof AC control board in the AC. THAT wire is what supplies 12 volt power to the Roof AC control board and then DOWN to the wall tstsat. On other models, the blue 12 v wire goes to the wall tstat and then another wire then feeds the Roof AC for 12 volt power to the Roof AC. You need to get all the wires out of that small hole in the wall and odds are you will see a wire not connected. Doug


Thanks Doug. The thermostat wiring shown in the above pic is the way it's always been. I've looked at it before and made notes about the wires and colors. If I look further in the wall hole, I can also see a black wire, and that one additional red wire that has a wire nut on it (with a very small gauge red wire connected to it).

Here's my AC control box..

[image]

I cleaned up these connections when I first noticed the problem a couple days ago. From left-to-right, the colors are yellow (Y), gray (GL), green (GH), and blue/white connected together (B).

Based on what you're seeing, what would you check next?


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/17/20 08:53am

As a side note, I would be scared of how the wires are on that tstat circuit board too easy to break something can't be fixed, so I would snip the wires half way up to leave length and wire nut them back together after.

That way no chance of breaking anything right at the circuit board and no chance of mixing up the colours, and--it is easy to put a meter on any two and for putting the ends together of the ones coming out of the wall for trying to see if anything makes the furnace work--and without shorting something on the circuit board can't be fixed.


Posted By: Old-Biscuit on 05/17/20 09:48am

rejesterd wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:

Connect the 2 blue wires togther.furnace should come on
Connect the blue wire (one from furnace on/off switch) to Yellow wire and A/C Unit should come on


BFL13 wrote:

you can confirm the furnace works down at the furnace by jumpering the blues that would go to the tstat (but somehow get to the red and white on yours I think)


Ok, I'm slowly getting this. I've actually looked at the manual Old-Biscuit linked before, but I don't have 2 blue wires. Here's the thermostat wiring.

[image]

So there's one of each: blue, red, white, yellow, gray, and green. It's hard to see from the picture, but there is also another red wire inside the wall that is connected to another very small gauge red wire with a wire nut. Neither of these appear to be connected to the thermostat. Also, there are 2 purple wires coming from the thermostat that have been cut and taped over. I haven't done anything to the wiring here, so this is the way it's been for years (and the system has worked generally well for the most part).

Based on what I'm reading in the manual, it seems that if I connect red to green or red to gray, that should operate the fan only. And connecting red to yellow & green, that would operate the AC at low speed. And connecting red to white would run the furnace.

Is that correct? Thanks so much.


YES!


Posted By: dougrainer on 05/17/20 10:29am

From your pics, the Roof AC IS controlled from the Wall Tstat. The HOT blue (12 volt positive wire) exiting the furnace goes to the wall tstat and supplies 12 volt power to the wall tstat. The wall tstat then sends the appropriate 12 volt signal to the roof AC to turn on the Fan and or the Compressor. The wall tstat then also sends a 12 volt signal BACK to the furnace to that second blue wire to turn the furnace ON. So, Check all the wires at the tstat for 12 volts. THAT one wire should be from the furnace. IF NONE of those wires have 12 volts you have a disconnect(open) between the furnace and the wall tstat. Be advised, that some OEM's will install an inline fuse inside the wall behind the tstat, so make sure there is NO in line fuse stuck down in the wall. There will be enough wire slack to pull the wiring out if there is a fuse. Doug


Posted By: dougrainer on 05/17/20 10:32am

Your original tstat wall pic shows a large 14 gauge RED wire connected to a small 20 gauge red wire with a wire nut inside the wall hole. THAT wire should have 12 volts pos. Doug


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 10:41am

Ok Doug, I did like you said and pulled the wires out further. What I thought was a black wire is actually brown. Inside are 2 smaller gauge wires, one red and one white. These are connected to the tstat red and white wires respectively.
[image]
I don't know where this goes, but I assume this is shore power.

The lighter blue wire from the tstat connects to the darker blue wire shown in the picture. That darker blue wire appears to go to the AC control box. I assume the green, yellow and gray wires also go to the AC control box.

Still not totally sure what the next step would be. Should I try connecting red to green or gray just to see if that operates the fan?


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/17/20 10:51am

Did you put your voltmeter on the AC control box shown in that photo for any 12v there? With and without the tstat control to "on" for that? Those terminals look easy to get the meter probes on, unlike at that tstat circuit board without doing any harm touching the wrong thing.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 11:17am

Ok, I figured out what the brown wire is. Here'a a picture on the other side of the furnace housing..

[image]

So the 12V dc power is a black wire which goes from the main fuse panel, and connects to that red wire shown in the above pic. That red wire goes to the furnace circuit breaker (it's the top red wire on the breaker, shown in my earlier pic). I can also see that both blue wires (coming from the furnace circuit breaker and the furnace relay) connect to the smaller red and white wires inside that brown wire. So basically, the small red & white wires at the thermostat are the blues coming from the furnace.

BFL13 wrote:

Did you put your voltmeter on the AC control box shown in that photo for any 12v there? With and without the tstat control to "on" for that? Those terminals look easy to get the meter probes on, unlike at that tstat circuit board without doing any harm touching the wrong thing.


Yes, and I'm getting 0V at those connections, regardless of what the tstat is set to (on/off/fan/auto/manual).

Edited: The black wire is 12V dc power, not shore power.

* This post was edited 05/17/20 12:17pm by rejesterd *


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 11:36am

dougrainer wrote:

Your original tstat wall pic shows a large 14 gauge RED wire connected to a small 20 gauge red wire with a wire nut inside the wall hole. THAT wire should have 12 volts pos. Doug


So I removed the wire nut that joins the red wires at the tstat. I put the positive probe of my multimeter on the smaller red wire (coming from the furnace) and I connected the black probe to one of the screws that holds the thermostat mounting bracket onto the wall. I get 0V. Am I doing that right? Sorry, I'm very new at troubleshooting electrical stuff.

If my test is correct, then I suppose that means the wiring is bad somewhere between the furnace (where the 2 blues are connected to red & white inside the brown wire) and the tstat. Again, I get 13V at the blue wire connected to the furnace circuit breaker.


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/17/20 11:47am

What do you mean by "shore power"? That is 120v. Furnace is all 12v. A/C has 120v but controls for it are 12v.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/17/20 11:53am

BFL13 wrote:

What do you mean by "shore power"? That is 120v. Furnace is all 12v. A/C has 120v but controls for it are 12v.


Sorry, I mean the 12V dc power supply. On my rv, I don't need to have the battery hooked up to operate the slideout and other 12V components. I'm plugged into shore power, and I see 118V ac at the main breaker and the breaker for the air conditioner.


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/17/20 12:23pm

Before snipping the wires to the tstat so you can join the red and white from the wall end to end (which is the "two blues" AFAIK), I would try the whole thing with that 2a fuse jumpered. You cleaned it up, but just to confirm. You said that was the culprit last time.

Also I would undo that wire nut on the reds in case it is all corroded in there.

Then if that didn't help, I would snip the wires as mentioned before, leaving lots of wire out from the wall to connect your new (as might be needed) thermostat. (but also long wire from the tstat to rejoin with) If the furnace and AC run by the wires from the wall, then the tstat is not acting as a switch anymore.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/18/20 05:34am

Thanks again, everyone. All your comments helped me clearly understand the wiring involved, and now I have a good plan for when I go back to camp this Friday. The troubleshooting chart in the Coleman manual (provided earlier by Old-Biscuit) is now very clear. And it seems my earlier voltage test at the thermostat might not have been valid. So I'll start by checking for 12 VDC between the white and blue wires at the thermostat, and go from there, just like the chart says. I'll update again this weekend.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/18/20 05:34am

Thanks again, everyone. All your comments helped me clearly understand the wiring involved, and now I have a good plan for when I go back to camp this Friday. The troubleshooting chart in the Coleman manual (provided earlier by Old-Biscuit) is now very clear. And it seems my earlier voltage test at the thermostat might not have been valid. So I'll start by checking for 12 VDC between the white and blue wires at the thermostat, and go from there, just like the chart says. I'll update again this weekend.


Posted By: dougrainer on 05/18/20 08:32am

You screwed up big time[emoticon] You attempted to use the Tstat mount screw for a ground????? How would that be a ground screwed into WOOD?[emoticon] Find another ground source. Now that SMALL 2 wires(Red and White), those come from the Furnace. See your pic. The RED should be 12 volt positive at the furnace and at the wall tstat. Once you get a good ground verify that at the tstat. Doug

PS a Ground should be that Large BLUE wire at the wall tstat. BUT, if that wire has lost its ground, that would be your power problem, so it is best to use a good ground from another source. I usually use the GROUND pin on the 120 wall receptacle.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/18/20 09:51am

dougrainer wrote:

You screwed up big time[emoticon] You attempted to use the Tstat mount screw for a ground????? How would that be a ground screwed into WOOD?[emoticon] Find another ground source. Now that SMALL 2 wires(Red and White), those come from the Furnace. See your pic. The RED should be 12 volt positive at the furnace and at the wall tstat. Once you get a good ground verify that at the tstat. Doug

PS a Ground should be that Large BLUE wire at the wall tstat. BUT, if that wire has lost its ground, that would be your power problem, so it is best to use a good ground from another source. I usually use the GROUND pin on the 120 wall receptacle.

hahaha I was thinking you would come back and rip me a new one for that. Well deserved. I've been lucky with this RV in that every problem I've had thus far was just a replacement part... either a fuse or a relay. But now I have to get my hands dirty.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/19/20 07:58pm

Ok.. I decided to come back up to camp today, so I can hopefully fix this before the weekend.

I confirmed there is zero volts at the red wire at the thermostat. I hooked my negative probe up to 2 known good grounds this time (the breaker panel frame and a nearby outlet). So I went back to the furnace and confirmed that I still have 12V at the blue wire connected to the furnace circuit breaker. Then I just started working back from there. In the access panel where the plastic 6-pin connector is, I confirmed that I get 12V at the blue wire on one side of the plastic connector, but not on the other side. This is the blue wire that supplies power to the thermostat (i.e. it's the one that's connected to the thermostat's red wire).

Are these connectors something I could find at the hardware store? Again, here's the pic that shows it..

[image]

I jiggled the connector around a bit, but no change in the voltage.

Thanks again, guys.


Posted By: BFL13 on 05/19/20 08:42pm

Not clear to me, but the "two blues" that meet at the tstat on a heat only, are actually one wire that is connected by the tstat to get 12v back down to the other end.

So whatever the wires are on yours, only one would have 12v on it until it is connected to the other I think.

I took a photo of mine to muddify things for you [emoticon] The connector has a blue looped at the top and a blue at the bottom and there are just two blues at the tsat

">][image]

">][image]


Posted By: wnjj on 05/19/20 10:26pm

That style of connector is just a housing with individual pins that snap into place. You should be able to look closely and see why there isn’t a connection. Check both sides of the connector. Worst case, splice a wire onto each side and connect them with a bullet style connector in parallel with the bad one.

It does seem unlikely that a connector like that just went open circuit but I suppose anything is possible.


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/20/20 05:47am

Well, wnjj's suspicion was correct. After I shoved the probe in a little further, I get 12V at the both sides of this connector. I also get 12V where the blue wire connects to the thermostat's red wire (in the same pic above) with that crimp cap. It feels like a pretty solid connection, but still no voltage at the thermostat end.

So I think that means I need to run a new wire. Anything else I should check before concluding that this is a short somewhere behind the wall? That makes the most sense, since the fuse on the thermostat blew a couple years back.

On the plus side, at least I've found where the mice are getting in..


Posted By: rejesterd on 05/20/20 08:14am

Ok boys.. based on my previous tests, I decided to just snip the tstat connections and re-wire them temporarily (without going through the walls). The tstat has power now. The fan runs. I didn't test the heat because I actually need to install a new regulator for the gas lines (when it rains, it pours eh?). But I assume it will work when I actually have gas flowing again.

So now I just have to run the new wires behind the walls. The problem is with the old wire going to the thermostat (the brown wire which contains the smaller gauge red & white wires). It is totally stuck. I tried pulling on it from both ends and it just won't budge. I was hoping I could just tape the new wires to one end and pull them through, but nope.

So it's stuck and I don't know where exactly the wire travels behind the walls/ceiling. I only know that from the tstat, it goes up toward the ceiling. From there, I have no idea where it's going. I did notice that it only moves on the tstat end if I also push up on all the tstat wires.. it moves with them. So I'm guessing it goes to the ceiling plenum, but I don't think it's worth taking that apart. So hopefully I'll figure out a way to run it behind my cabinets then through the walls. Any advice on doing that would be greatly appreciated. But I'm happy I at least understand the wiring now.


Posted By: wnjj on 05/20/20 11:03am

Your best bet may be to head down, through the floor and back up into the furnace. Consider cutting a hole in the wall just above the floor and then cover it with a mud ring and blank cover plate. By putting this near the floor, you can angle a drill down through or drill up from the bottom and use hole to allow you to feed the wire. This assumes you can drop a loose wire down all the way from the t-stat hole without framing in the way.


Posted By: wa8yxm on 05/20/20 03:40pm

If you can get into the utility tunnels (A riser that runs along one or both side walls from there the world is your oyster. follow the tunnels to where the water lines pop through to the basement then you can cross over in the wet bays if you need to (or just compartment to comprtment along) and then up to the Furnace... NOT through the same hole as the propane line (drill a new one if you must) or even come up and enter from the side. Lots of options with not much drilling and no holes where anyone can see 'em.


Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times



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