So, what is a Lippert frame?
1994 GMC Suburban K1500
2005 Trail Cruiser TC26QBC
1965 CHEVY VAN, 292 "Big Block 6" (will still tow)
2008 HHR
L(Larry)V(Vicki)J(Jennifer)J(Jesse)J(Jason)
If I liked a certain trailer that had one, I would still buy it - esp. a travel trailer.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/mad.gif "mad")
The parent company Forest River has been forced by NHSTA to issue a RECALL for specific models lacking required frame stiffeners. Unfortunately, even though my trailer was built during the time period covered by this recall my particular model is not on the list because it does have these frame stiffeners - yet the frame still cracked. For this reason both Coachmen and Lippert denied a claim made by my dealer on my behalf to have this frame repaired ... he's since gone back at them repeatedly and in a recent email says that Lippert has finally now agreed to cover the cost of repair. I'm certainly not happy this Lippert frame has failed and the reasons don't really matter to me but I am now satisfied I'm not being left holding the hook on this. As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners. Whether this same improvement has been made to other Coachmen models or other manufacturers' models I couldn't say but if I were in the market for any trailer that had a Lippert frame I'd want to know that it was up to the task.
2012 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab
2014 Coachmen Freedom Express 192RBS
2003 Fleetwood Yuma * 2008 K-Z Spree 240BH-LX
2007 TrailCruiser C21RBH * 2000 Fleetwood Santa Fe
1998 Jayco 10UD * 1969 Coleman CT380
My trailer has a Lippert frame, motorized awning, motorized slides, motorized tongue jack and motorized stabilizers.
Jack L
Jack & Nanci
2015 Backpack SS1500
1997 Ford 7.3 OBS 4x4 CC LB
SidecarFlip wrote:
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/awink.gif "awink")
Rob
U.S. Army retired
2020 Solitude 310GK-R
MORryde IS, disc brakes, solar, DP windows
(Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
2012 F350 CC DRW Lariat 6.7
Full-time since 8/2015
Second Chance wrote:
Lippert/LCI may use the cheapest labor available and their goal is to turn out as many widgets (whatever the component is) in the shortest time possible. However, the RV manufacturer writes the specifications for the chassis and suspension. If the manufacturer specs a lighter weight or weaker frame than should be under the trailer, that's what LCI will provide.
Rob
Lippert/LCI may use the cheapest labor available and their goal is to turn out as many widgets (whatever the component is) in the shortest time possible. However, the RV manufacturer writes the specifications for the chassis and suspension. If the manufacturer specs a lighter weight or weaker frame than should be under the trailer, that's what LCI will provide.
Rob
You are correct but when you personally experience the shell game that happens when you have a frame related issue, and the RV manufacturer refers you to back to Lippert under the "component supplied by others" verbiage in the warranty, then you can make that statement.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
We had a previous TT with a Lippert frame. Found out the day after we got it there were problems with it. One issue was all spring hangers were bent to one side 1/2" or more. Took the TT to a gov't certified inspection facility who said it was the worst frame they'd ever seen, including lots of substandard welding. Lippert initially said "it's within specs". Yeah, to their substandard specs! Photo below shows what can happen to the superstructure from excessive frame flex (I-beams). TT got returned and replaced under warranty.
Lippert frames have various designs and some are worse than others. One design has I-beams made from 3 pieces of 1/8" mild steel welded together that *look* like a "regular" I-beam - very flexible and not recommended (IMHO). Despite what LCI may say, they don't have good quality control and it doesn't seem to have improved.
One thing I think is lacking is industry regulations for trailer frames like from say SAE. As it is now, Lippert can put whatever weight and length they want on a particular frame design nor do they have to meet any welding standards. Axles and tires can be loaded up to near capacity ratings and lead to things like bent axles and premature tire failures. If a frame fails, it's normally the customer that is blamed for overloading it. Worst case I ever heard of was a Lippert frame that folded like a pretzel at the axle location.
Some manufacturers like Jayco and Lance use BAL frames which uses a special type of rivet and has almost no welding. Northwood uses an in-house built frame on all their model lines which is independently certified to off-road standards and is a very good frame.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/hSY9FOjm.jpg)
* This post was edited 01/29/18 12:14pm by myredracer *
Chuck & Ruth with 4-legged Molly
2007 Tiffin Allegro 30DA
2011 Ford Ranger
1987 HD FLHTP
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
Huntindog
100% boondocking
2021 Grand Design Momentum 398M
2 bathrooms, no waiting
104 gal grey, 104 black,158 fresh
FullBodyPaint, 3,8Kaxles, DiscBrakes
17.5LRH commercial tires
1860watts solar,800 AH Battleborn batterys
2020 Silverado HighCountry CC DA 4X4 DRW
mountainkowboy wrote:
Lippert has been building garbage for many, many years now, and there failures are well documented. I wouldn't buy anything they build, I've seen better welds from teenagers.
Lippert has been building garbage for many, many years now, and there failures are well documented. I wouldn't buy anything they build, I've seen better welds from teenagers.
Then I guess you won't be buying anything as Lippert is all over the RV industry with a wide range of products.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/wink.gif "wink")
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
I believe that they made various kinds of frames, but I would like to put a micrometer on that 1/4" part.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
Mine is not a welded 10" I beam as well. Can't post pics...don't do the host deal.
2015 Ram 3500 Dually
Sundowner 2286GM Pro-Grade Toyhauler
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Lynnmor wrote:
I believe that they made various kinds of frames, but I would like to put a micrometer on that 1/4" part.
I already did. Actually it was a dial caliperRalph Cramden wrote:
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
Please post a picture. I have yet to see Lippert using a rolled beam as opposed to a manufactured / welded main rail on anything they produce.
I believe that they made various kinds of frames, but I would like to put a micrometer on that 1/4" part.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/biggrin.gif "biggrin")
goducks10 wrote:
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
This frame also has gussets in places where it should have such as where the shackle perches are welded on etc. Has out-riggers no more that 24" apart and some as close as 18".
I'm no engineer but I have stuck a few pieces of metal together with a welder over the years, and it looks ok to me. Six years old now, still rolls down the road the way it's supposed to.
I'm neither a fan of nor a detractor of LCI. To me it's just another supplier of stuff. As another poster pointed out, if you are gonna avoid LCI stuff, you probably won't be buying a RV in the USA.
EDIT" 6" beam, 1/8" thick
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/G9t1uKyl.jpg)
Even the stories of fifth wheel frame issues have all but dried up.
Just not a problem like it once was.
* This post was edited 01/29/18 05:08pm by ScottG *
Wild Card wrote:
Mine is not a welded 10" I beam as well. Can't post pics...don't do the host deal.
Mine is not a welded 10" I beam as well. Can't post pics...don't do the host deal.
You can pics by using this. No need to host.
2021 Toyota Tundra TRD Off Road double cab
2022 Airstream International 27FB
Blue Ox Sway Pro hitch
M.I.L is self quatanting in Jacksonville Zoo
Twenty six foot 2010 Dutchmen Lite pulled with a 2011 EcoBoost F-150 4x4.
Just right for Grandpa, Grandma and the dog.
SoundGuy wrote:
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side. The parent company Forest River has been forced by NHSTA to issue a RECALL for specific models lacking required frame stiffeners. Unfortunately, even though my trailer was built during the time period covered by this recall my particular model is not on the list because it does have these frame stiffeners - yet the frame still cracked. For this reason both Coachmen and Lippert denied a claim made by my dealer on my behalf to have this frame repaired ... he's since gone back at them repeatedly and in a recent email says that Lippert has finally now agreed to cover the cost of repair. I'm certainly not happy this Lippert frame has failed and the reasons don't really matter to me but I am now satisfied I'm not being left holding the hook on this. As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners. Whether this same improvement has been made to other Coachmen models or other manufacturers' models I couldn't say but if I were in the market for any trailer that had a Lippert frame I'd want to know that it was up to the task.
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
The parent company Forest River has been forced by NHSTA to issue a RECALL for specific models lacking required frame stiffeners. Unfortunately, even though my trailer was built during the time period covered by this recall my particular model is not on the list because it does have these frame stiffeners - yet the frame still cracked. For this reason both Coachmen and Lippert denied a claim made by my dealer on my behalf to have this frame repaired ... he's since gone back at them repeatedly and in a recent email says that Lippert has finally now agreed to cover the cost of repair. I'm certainly not happy this Lippert frame has failed and the reasons don't really matter to me but I am now satisfied I'm not being left holding the hook on this. As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners. Whether this same improvement has been made to other Coachmen models or other manufacturers' models I couldn't say but if I were in the market for any trailer that had a Lippert frame I'd want to know that it was up to the task.If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
Kip
2015 Skyline Dart 214RB
2018 Silverado Double Cab 4x4
Andersen Hitch
GrandpaKip wrote:
....snip...
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
....snip...
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
Because some people have to try to convince others they are never wrong ?
"Listen to me, I am the truth, the light, and others will lead you astray"
Kip, a certain poster here has stated that yours truly is trying to lead others astray into dangerous territory. Oh my.
SoundGuy wrote:
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
GrandpaKip wrote:
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
Surely this is self explanatory!
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/doh.gif "doh")
2006 Silverado 1500HD Crew Cab 2WD 6.0L 3.73 8600 GVWR
2018 Coachmen Catalina Legacy Edition 223RBS
1991 Palomino Filly PUP
Huntindog wrote:
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
goducks10 wrote:
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
Well thats impressive.
drsteve wrote:
The 2018 Coachmen in my sig has plenty of shoddy workmanship, the most serious being a floor that flexes and makes loud cracking sounds when walked on in front of the stove. Coachmen customer service rep says this is normal and that they all do it, even though I was unable to find another one on the dealer's lot that did. The dealer is useless--they proved unable to even properly install a slide awning--and so is Forest River.
The 2018 Coachmen in my sig has plenty of shoddy workmanship, the most serious being a floor that flexes and makes loud cracking sounds when walked on in front of the stove. Coachmen customer service rep says this is normal and that they all do it, even though I was unable to find another one on the dealer's lot that did. The dealer is useless--they proved unable to even properly install a slide awning--and so is Forest River.
Thats not a Lippert issue. Thats a Coachman issue. Guessing they didn't glue the wood or at least not well enough to the wood floor joists before they stapled it. If they would've glued and screwed you probably wouldn't have a squeak.
SoundGuy wrote:
Then I guess you won't be buying anything as Lippert is all over the RV industry with a wide range of products.
mountainkowboy wrote:
Lippert has been building garbage for many, many years now, and there failures are well documented. I wouldn't buy anything they build, I've seen better welds from teenagers.
Lippert has been building garbage for many, many years now, and there failures are well documented. I wouldn't buy anything they build, I've seen better welds from teenagers.
Then I guess you won't be buying anything as Lippert is all over the RV industry with a wide range of products.
There's PLENTY of units out there that don't have any Lippert parts, just gotta do your research. So don't you worry.....I'll be just fine trollio.
gmw photos wrote:
Because some people have to try to convince others they are never wrong ?
"Listen to me, I am the truth, the light, and others will lead you astray"
Kip, a certain poster here has stated that yours truly is trying to lead others astray into dangerous territory. Oh my.
GrandpaKip wrote:
....snip...
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
....snip...
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
Because some people have to try to convince others they are never wrong ?
"Listen to me, I am the truth, the light, and others will lead you astray"
Kip, a certain poster here has stated that yours truly is trying to lead others astray into dangerous territory. Oh my.
HAHAHAHAHA.........NAILED IT!!!
goducks10 wrote:
Well thats impressive.
Huntindog wrote:
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
goducks10 wrote:
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
Well thats impressive.
I don't doubt the 10" with 1/4" inch flange and web thickness. I do however doubt it's rolled and not a machine welded / fabricated shape. The only 10" rolled shapes I am aware of that could be used in a trailer frame application would be an S10x25.4 or S10x35. Neither of those have a 1/4" thickness anywhere. The lighter 25.4 has roughly a 1/2" flange and a 3/8" web.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
I don't doubt the 10" with 1/4" inch flange and web thickness. I do however doubt it's rolled and not a machine welded / fabricated shape. The only 10" rolled shapes I am aware of that could be used in a trailer frame application would be an S10x25.4 or S10x35. Neither of those have a 1/4" thickness anywhere. The lighter 25.4 has roughly a 1/2" flange and a 3/8" web.
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.goducks10 wrote:
Well thats impressive.
Huntindog wrote:
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
goducks10 wrote:
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
Well thats impressive.
I don't doubt the 10" with 1/4" inch flange and web thickness. I do however doubt it's rolled and not a machine welded / fabricated shape. The only 10" rolled shapes I am aware of that could be used in a trailer frame application would be an S10x25.4 or S10x35. Neither of those have a 1/4" thickness anywhere. The lighter 25.4 has roughly a 1/2" flange and a 3/8" web.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/m3zZPvb.png)
Click For Full-Size Image. width=300[/img]I have lots of pics. This one clearly shows it is NOT a welded beam.
I did not take any that will "prove" how thick it is. That was not the purpose of these pics taken 8-9 years ago. I have however measured them with a dial caliper a year or so ago, when Jbarca and I were discussing frames, and how they work.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
I don't doubt the 10" with 1/4" inch flange and web thickness. I do however doubt it's rolled and not a machine welded / fabricated shape. The only 10" rolled shapes I am aware of that could be used in a trailer frame application would be an S10x25.4 or S10x35. Neither of those have a 1/4" thickness anywhere. The lighter 25.4 has roughly a 1/2" flange and a 3/8" web.
goducks10 wrote:
Well thats impressive.
Huntindog wrote:
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
goducks10 wrote:
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
Huntindog wrote:
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
My present TT has a Lippert frame. It is by far the best frame I have had under any of my TTs.
10" tall real I beam (not welded) 1/4" thick.
The welds are top notch, and the frame is powder coated.
Lippert gets a bad rap here, but my frame is proof that they can put a good frame under a TT, if the manufacturer is willing to pay for it.
I had a out of warranty problem with the Lippert sealed bearing axles my TT came with. Lippert had discontinued those axles, but made me a very fair offer to get both axles replaced.
They could have easily weaseled on me, but they stood up and did the right thing.
I know I may be a rare bird here.... But I am a Lippert fan
I highly doubt the web is 1/4" thick. If so that TT would weigh way too much.
The flanges would be 1/4" where they meet the web.
Just curious what TT do you have?
2010 Palomino Sabre. 30BHDS
The web and flanges measure 1/4 thick.
I am not set up to post pics. I do have pics of my frame on the factory floor. from when I toured the factory after picking it up.
Jbarca has seen them.
I don't BS about this sort of thing.
Well thats impressive.
I don't doubt the 10" with 1/4" inch flange and web thickness. I do however doubt it's rolled and not a machine welded / fabricated shape. The only 10" rolled shapes I am aware of that could be used in a trailer frame application would be an S10x25.4 or S10x35. Neither of those have a 1/4" thickness anywhere. The lighter 25.4 has roughly a 1/2" flange and a 3/8" web.
I know there are some 3 piece welded frames. The one that a picture was posted of last page and every trailer I have owned are rolled steel I beam. No weld is smooth and a machine weld looks like a perfect stack of dimes. These I beams are perfectly smooth/tooled not welded at the web/flange.
You say the only beams you know of are such and such. You ever think Lippert a chassis mfg might have their own tooling machine to make I beam out of thinner steel...just by chance?
drsteve wrote:
The 2018 Coachmen in my sig has plenty of shoddy workmanship, the most serious being a floor that flexes and makes loud cracking sounds when walked on in front of the stove.
The 2018 Coachmen in my sig has plenty of shoddy workmanship, the most serious being a floor that flexes and makes loud cracking sounds when walked on in front of the stove.
I seem to recall already suggesting a solution for this ... the cause isn't so much the floor itself but the fact that as you walk near the galley the galley frame moves ever so slightly against the floor, sometimes a bit more noticeable than other times depending on exterior ambient temperatures. The solution is to simply secure the galley frame to the floor with more screws, in my case coarse thread deck screws - stop the movement and you'll stop the "cracking" sounds. Worked for me.
I just looked online and found 12" rolled beams for sale, and the spec of the material thickness is .232", so yes, 'dogs measurement of 1/4" ( .250" ) would be within twenty thousandths. Sounds right to me.
As I stated earlier, the 6" beam under this 19' trailer I am in right now has a material thickness of approx 1/8" ( .125" ). Seems reasonable to me.
SoundGuy wrote:
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster.
SidecarFlip wrote:
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster.
X2 on this. in general the public who buy these products want cheaper prices on everything . in the manufacturing industry no matter what it is. appliances, autos, rv's the factors going into the retail price involve are complex but material cost, labor,advertising, warranty coverages are what sets the prices.
SoundGuy wrote:
Surely this is self explanatory!
SoundGuy wrote:
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
GrandpaKip wrote:
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
Surely this is self explanatory!
My apologies. However, your understanding is just that (an opinion). If you had stated when, where and what Coachmen had done, that would be fine for all the trailers that have been constructed since then. But the fact still remains that you have touted this trailer many times without caveat.
As I see it, the main concern would be with new members of this forum looking at used trailers. With your recommendation, they might be led to believe this is a great camper. A problem with cracked frames should eliminate this trailer from any consideration.
SoundGuy wrote:
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side.
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.
GrandpaKip wrote:
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?
SoundGuy wrote:
Surely this is self explanatory!
Surely this is self explanatory!
GrandpaKip wrote:
My apologies. However, your understanding is just that (an opinion). If you had stated when, where and what Coachmen had done, that would be fine for all the trailers that have been constructed since then. But the fact still remains that you have touted this trailer many times without caveat.
As I see it, the main concern would be with new members of this forum looking at used trailers. With your recommendation, they might be led to believe this is a great camper. A problem with cracked frames should eliminate this trailer from any consideration.
My apologies. However, your understanding is just that (an opinion). If you had stated when, where and what Coachmen had done, that would be fine for all the trailers that have been constructed since then. But the fact still remains that you have touted this trailer many times without caveat.
As I see it, the main concern would be with new members of this forum looking at used trailers. With your recommendation, they might be led to believe this is a great camper. A problem with cracked frames should eliminate this trailer from any consideration.
I don't believe I've ever "touted this trailer many times without caveat" but if asked, sure I'd suggest others consider it. Why not? - it's a great floor plan for an adult couple, offers pretty well all the amenities one would want in a travel trailer, it's easy to tow and easy to park on pretty well any campsite. Is it perfect? ... surely not, never have claimed it was, no more than any other trailer. It's a mass produced product built for the masses, just as most other trailers are. Yes, my particular 2014 has a cracked frame but it is NOT on any NHSTA recall list and if you had actually read the content of that recall you'd know that only ~ 1000 units of other models built during a specific time period are subject to that recall. Is my 192RBS which is not part of this recall a fluke? ... don't know, but I'm not aware of any other 192RBS models exhibiting this problem. Regardless, it is my "understanding" that newer models from 2016 onward use a different frame which shouldn't exhibit this same issue anyway. FWIW, my wife & I recently discussed the idea of actually trading our 2014 for a new 2018 192RBS as it offers a number of improvements such as a full length queen bed and vent over the main cabin but the hit in depreciation really doesn't make this practical, especially when our 2014 serves the purpose just fine.
sgfrye wrote:
X2 on this. in general the public who buy these products want cheaper prices on everything . in the manufacturing industry no matter what it is. appliances, autos, rv's the factors going into the retail price involve are complex but material cost, labor,advertising, warranty coverages are what sets the prices.
I gotta sorta agree with this. My Sabre has a stout frame because Sabre requested it from Lippert. Sabre is no longer in the TT business. Could be that they had a hard time selling them for enough to turn a profit with some of the upgraded stuff they were building.
SoundGuy wrote:
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster.
SidecarFlip wrote:
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster.
X2 on this. in general the public who buy these products want cheaper prices on everything . in the manufacturing industry no matter what it is. appliances, autos, rv's the factors going into the retail price involve are complex but material cost, labor,advertising, warranty coverages are what sets the prices.
Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.
I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."
Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/OkWXzeml.jpg)
Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
I doubt you are wrong - sounds like an entirely reasonable explanation to me as it's clear you know far more about this subject than any of us! Thanks for the detail - doesn't change the fact that the frame on my own Coachmen has failed but at least I have some better understanding why it failed.
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
2009 Silverado 3500HD Dually, D/A, CCLB 4x4 (bought new 8/30/09)
2018 Arctic Fox 992 with an Onan 2500i "quiet" model generator
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/7Uz2v4kl.jpg)
deltabravo wrote:
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
LVJJJ wrote:
Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
deltabravo wrote:
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
If you look at the picture of mine in the post earlier, it has a sticker on it.
As to whether they are any good or not, as you can see, there are opinions all over the map.
JCR-1 wrote:
I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.
I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.
Screen shot taken directly from the Lippert Towable Chassis website ...
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/5TiSuL8l.png)
This guy sure doesn't look like a robot to me.
BTW, what unemployment?
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/scratchead.gif "scratchead")
... these days the RV industry in and around Goshen can't find enough people to work in their plants. I doubt "skill" has much to do with it.
LVJJJ wrote:
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
In 2006 we bought a new 2007 RVision C21RBH TrailCruiser which we owned for a couple of seasons, eventually got rid of it because I hated having to deal with tenting but also because it was exhibiting a mold / mildew smell in the small front storage compartment and because the tires were wearing unevenly - perhaps an axle issue, perhaps a frame issue, I can't say. I don't recall who made the frame but if you own a 2005 it's a little late to be concerned about it now.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
Great info. and analysis!Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
One thing I've noticed in the rolled beams is that in longer trailers, they aren't one continuous length. They're a couple of lengths with the ends butt welded together. It's done so well it's hard to see it and looks too good to be done by Lippert. Is there a maximum shipping length and it is actually done by Lippert or is it done by the supplier? These welds don't ever seem to be a problem and I would think are critical to be done properly. I've never seen or heard of a structural beam in a building not being one continuous length.
The 3-piece welded beams are usually on ultralite TTs and are easy to spot at an RV show or on a dealers lot by running a finger along the weld or looking it it. But just why do they use these beams? Are they lighter than an equivalent dimension rolled beam? I would expect a rolled beam would have a higher grade/strength for an equiv. dimension and maybe cost more per foot? But then the cost of welding 3 pieces of flat steel together to make a beam has to be costly and labor intensive. The 6" welded I-beams we had on a previous TT might as well have been made from rubber they flexed so much.
Cold rolled beams are hot rolled beams that undergo further processing and improves tolerances and appearance and would cost more so doubt they are used in any RV frames. Flat steel is hot rolled tho. and is what the welded beams would be made from (the finish is smoother on them). I don't think cold rolling improves the strength and any difference in strength would be from different grades of steel used.
* This post was edited 02/01/18 09:44am by myredracer *
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.
I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."
Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
A couple of seemingly small observations.Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.
I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."
Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
My Flanges are 2 3/4" wide, not 2 1/2"
And what you are stating is a but weld is not.
It is a cambering weld.
As for your other pic showing a person welding and stating he is not a robot... That is true. But it is also true that he is NOT welding a 3 piece I beam together.
I can find ZERO evidence that my frame is a so called welded I beam. And I have been into the underbelly for insulation, Heat tape and wiring upgrades.
If it were a welded I beam, and it was done so perfectly that it is impossible to tell by looking at it.... That would make it a pretty good one. IOW....Why gripe about it?
Huntindog wrote:
As for your other pic showing a person welding and stating he is not a robot... That is true. But it is also true that he is NOT welding a 3 piece I beam together.
As for your other pic showing a person welding and stating he is not a robot... That is true. But it is also true that he is NOT welding a 3 piece I beam together.
If you're so quick to criticize at least direct that criticism at the right person - me. I posted that pic, not RC, but nowhere did I say that person was welding a frame, it was merely in response to JCR-1 who said he thought all welding was now done by robots, which is clearly not the case.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
Hi Ralph,
There was a period of time when Lippert was able to get hot rolled MH beams. They might still be able to, I don't know. I have one made in Nov. 2003 and Hunting Dog's has one too although his is a little heavier than mine.
I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html
You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.
Huntingdog's frame is closer to a 10" x 13.2#/foot with an area moment of inertia of 50.6 in.^4th. His vintage is stronger and the one he ended up with was a good one. I wish mine was that heavy, close to 42% stronger given the same steel. He has a higher GVWR on his camper then mine too. Mine is only 10,000#. Dog's is 11,500#
Here are some rusted pics of mine. I have since cleaned that rust off and painted it after my repair and these are all I had on my web server that sort of showed the radius. They are rolled.
![[image]](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4595/27585062249_7a28d6b6d5_o.jpg)
![[image]](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4656/25161056927_6c61549572_o.jpg)
![[image]](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4700/39133645995_4e7cde21ae_o.jpg)
Here is a closer one of the radius
![[image]](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4664/26159338098_1c3492b14e_o.jpg)
These beams are for sure thin. They do make them from HSLC steel in the 50ksi yield range. In order to help them not deflect, they are welding beads on the top flange to heat/shrink in some positive camber at the rear hanger area to help the overhung loads keep the beam straighter. This have been ongoing in the industry for a long time.
If you ever find a handbook of these, please let me know.
To the topic of Lippert frames, in my case Sunline used them as a subcontractor. They had an east coast plant near their factory and they use to make products for Skyline too I think back in the day. And as far as subcontractors go, if the firm hiring them accepts poor quality that is problem 1. In my case my frame was not made that bad although I had issues they could not weld hangers on in the correct location. They just plain screwed up. If all the big RV manufacturers are accepting poor quality they are paying for, in my book they are as bad as the ones who made it.
Hope this helps
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we were camping!)
JBarca wrote:
I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html
You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.
I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html
You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.
Thanks for posting that link. Interestingly I think we have done some business with those guys in the past on something. I don't remember all of that stuff but my estimator will. I doubt you'll find any info on those MH beams in any bible, either printed or the net version. To me those are custom pieces. Maybe not so if you're a manufactured housing builder, but the website also seems to indicate they'll run those to order. I've got a fab guy I use for small stuff who used to be one of "the guys" at American Bridge. If it was made in the last 100 years and has published info he'll have it, or know where to get it lol. That's if he has not keeled over lately as he's about 85 but still going at it...I think.
On a side note reading through the company history, those WV guys may have been the inventors of the micro mini mill. Back in the day there were many here around Pittsburgh, not so much now days.
In the last few years I can not bring myself to believe Lippert would still be using those. I can see 03 or even 2010, but with what they have acquired and have become in the in the last 10 years since they bought up everyone and everybody, who was into frames....almost,...I'm skeptical. I know they did a major outlay a few years ago for continuous welding equipment, read that in a trade pub.
It's neither here nor there, but I once had a long conversation with a broker over drinks about what Lipperts buyers look for when they go out shopping materials.....I won't go deeply into it, but will just say they apparently go looking for what others are not looking for, if you get my drift.
Ralph Cramden wrote:
....snip...
It's neither here nor there, but I once had a long conversation with a broker over drinks about what Lipperts buyers look for when they go out shopping materials.....I won't go deeply into it, but will just say they apparently go looking for what others are not looking for, if you get my drift.
....snip...
It's neither here nor there, but I once had a long conversation with a broker over drinks about what Lipperts buyers look for when they go out shopping materials.....I won't go deeply into it, but will just say they apparently go looking for what others are not looking for, if you get my drift.
I've virtually no knowledge of all this stuff since I was just an end user of various material being a machinist. But to your above point, I had heard from a supplier when I was still working ( I retired in 2010 ) that one of the problems the industry was seeing was a lot of scrap iron coming out of India was of alloys that were at times inappropriate and substandard. Old scrapped ships etc. No idea how true it might have been, but when it comes to product out of places like that and china, my guess is anything is possible.
Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
Fold down ramp / support for the tote tank?
hvac wrote:
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.
Getting into aluminium is a whole 'nuther game indeed. Both of my horse trailers and my equipment trailer are steel, but I've pulled and used AL horse trailers. I've looked them over carefully and for sure, the engineering/design is at least "somewhat different" than steel trailers.
I have chosen steel for various reasons, but for sure it can be done well out of AL.
When I build trailer frames, I use gussets in every inside corner. Over build, yes. Do I see gussets on may "factory bolt" trailers (including RV and utility trailers)? NO. If you love the trailer but hate its factory frame, take to a welding shop and get them to "improve" factory build - like using gussets. Might be worth it - if you plan to keep your trailer for 8+ years (like I do).
And if getting frame work done, replace its factory brake wiring with much better STAR design wiring using 10 gauge upgrade as well. All of my trailers with brakes have STAR design wiring and its much better than factory as well.
Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
See here from June 2011. I still use it every campout. It has worked out well for me.
Ladder Rack Under Camper - (long lot's of pic's)
Thanks
John
Ralph Cramden wrote:
Thanks for posting that link. Interestingly I think we have done some business with those guys in the past on something. I don't remember all of that stuff but my estimator will. I doubt you'll find any info on those MH beams in any bible, either printed or the net version. To me those are custom pieces. Maybe not so if you're a manufactured housing builder, but the website also seems to indicate they'll run those to order. I've got a fab guy I use for small stuff who used to be one of "the guys" at American Bridge. If it was made in the last 100 years and has published info he'll have it, or know where to get it lol. That's if he has not keeled over lately as he's about 85 but still going at it...I think.
On a side note reading through the company history, those WV guys may have been the inventors of the micro mini mill. Back in the day there were many here around Pittsburgh, not so much now days.
JBarca wrote:
I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html
You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.
I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html
You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.
Thanks for posting that link. Interestingly I think we have done some business with those guys in the past on something. I don't remember all of that stuff but my estimator will. I doubt you'll find any info on those MH beams in any bible, either printed or the net version. To me those are custom pieces. Maybe not so if you're a manufactured housing builder, but the website also seems to indicate they'll run those to order. I've got a fab guy I use for small stuff who used to be one of "the guys" at American Bridge. If it was made in the last 100 years and has published info he'll have it, or know where to get it lol. That's if he has not keeled over lately as he's about 85 but still going at it...I think.
On a side note reading through the company history, those WV guys may have been the inventors of the micro mini mill. Back in the day there were many here around Pittsburgh, not so much now days.
Hi Ralph, if by chance you can get any kind of info on these MH beams, I would be very interested in getting a copy etc. Your not going to find these in the Manual of Steel Construction...
The old guys who knew all this stuff... Yes, they are becoming fewer and fewer all the time. I'm getting closer to being in that category, retired but not quite close to his era.
I'm going to have to start looking close at the new campers on dealers lots for the welded H shape. I had not been looking for that so never paid too much attention. Now the new thing is 8" frame on 10,000# GVWR campers. I will never own one. 10" is the bare minimum in my book on anything in the 30 ft range. They keep cutting everything to the bare bones worse than they already were.
Thanks
John
JBarca wrote:
See here from June 2011. I still use it every campout. It has worked out well for me.
Ladder Rack Under Camper - (long lot's of pic's)
Thanks
John
Nicely done!
Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?
See here from June 2011. I still use it every campout. It has worked out well for me.
Ladder Rack Under Camper - (long lot's of pic's)
Thanks
John
gmw photos wrote:
Getting into aluminium is a whole 'nuther game indeed. Both of my horse trailers and my equipment trailer are steel, but I've pulled and used AL horse trailers. I've looked them over carefully and for sure, the engineering/design is at least "somewhat different" than steel trailers.
I have chosen steel for various reasons, but for sure it can be done well out of AL.
hvac wrote:
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.
Getting into aluminium is a whole 'nuther game indeed. Both of my horse trailers and my equipment trailer are steel, but I've pulled and used AL horse trailers. I've looked them over carefully and for sure, the engineering/design is at least "somewhat different" than steel trailers.
I have chosen steel for various reasons, but for sure it can be done well out of AL.
Not sure if this comes through.
https://m.imgur.com/account/apWebWrecker/images/HYxGWAm
hvac wrote:
Not sure if this comes through.
https://m.imgur.com/account/apWebWrecker/images/HYxGWAm
Not sure if this comes through.
https://m.imgur.com/account/apWebWrecker/images/HYxGWAm
It goes to an imgur fault page for me