Campground power pedestal failures (Reader Poll included)
http://rvtravel.com/campground-power-pedestal-failures-reader-poll-included/
I have previously mentioned one of many devices that can be used to check pedestal power. I found that these can now be found on Amazon – not sure where else as the company no longer sells retail. - Prime Products 12-4058 AC Power Line Monitor – I bought two of these and made up a device I can use to quickly check both legs of a 50 amp connection. I can also check any other standard connection. This will tell you if polarity is correct and if you have ground – as well as a digital voltage read out. You can plug one in you rig to monitor voltage.
We bought one of the ISB Solar Basic Voltage Regulators a few years ago in Mexico. I find I have to use ours in the US as well. You would have to use two of them to regulate both legs of a 50 amp connection. I know there have been any number of products mentioned over the years on this forum but this is the only one I have ever seen which can correct both high and low voltage. They work. I have never been able to find one in the US for a decent price.
Corrector of Voltage 8 and 4 KVA
http://www.isbmex.com/productos/corrector-de-voltaje-8-y-4-kva
Rated capacity: 4 KVA and 8 KVA
Operating range: 85 V ~ - 147 V ~
Rated voltage: 127 V ~ 60 Hz
Maximum current: 30 A (4 KVA), 60 A (8 KVA)
http://www.briansue2.blogspot.com
One of our visitors to Mexico did find a solid state device that was rock solid at 118 volts. I don't remember the name unfortunately.
I do love my sola basic and use it often.
briansue wrote:
We bought one of the ISB Solar Basic Voltage Regulators a few years ago in Mexico. I find I have to use ours in the US as well. I know there have been any number of products mentioned over the years on this forum but this is the only one I have ever seen which can correct both high and low voltage.
We bought one of the ISB Solar Basic Voltage Regulators a few years ago in Mexico. I find I have to use ours in the US as well. I know there have been any number of products mentioned over the years on this forum but this is the only one I have ever seen which can correct both high and low voltage.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.
Our neighbors in Mexico also like theirs.
Our dentist in Mexico also has all of her equipment hooked into one.
A simple test with an ohmmeter verifies continuity between ground, neutral, earth.
Open ground signals from surge protectors should certainly be investigated, however, are likely a mis reading of bonded systems.
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ground and neutral are common.
ground and neutral are common.
To the best of my knowledge ground and neutral are always common as they are connected to the same bar in the main panel - I don't know of any other way of doing it.
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/1706/is-it-ok-to-have-mixed-grounds-and-neutrals-on-bars-in-a-breaker-box
This is a response to a question so the person who answers posts the code and then his comments on what the code means.
National Electrical Code 2014
Article 250 Grounding and Bonding
II. System Grounding
250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current Systems.
(A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).
(1) General. The grounding electrode conductor connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the overhead service conductors, service drop, underground service conductors, or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.
This means that the grounded (neutral) from the service must be connected to ground, and that the connection can be made by bonding the neutral bus bar to the grounding electrode.
(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally non–current carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.
This means that the grounded (neutral) conductors should only be grounded at the main service disconnnect.
If the main service panel happens to be the same place that the grounded (neutral) conductor is bonded to the grounding electrode, then there is no problem mixing grounds and neutrals on the same bus bar (as long as there is an appropriate number of conductors terminated under each lug). If the two bus bars are not connected; as would be the case anywhere other than the main disconnect (exceptions exist), then you cannot mix them.
![[image]](http://i.imgur.com/y5JgljZ.png )
Notice how the grounded, and grounding bus bars are connected in the main service panel. This means that; electrically speaking, they can be considered a single bus bar. Which means that both grounded (neutral), and equipment grounding conductors can be terminated on either bus bar.
In the subpanel, the bus bars are kept separate. So grounded (neutral), and equipment grounding conductors cannot be mixed.
The wiring issue is not a matter of pride, neatness or whatever... it's a safety issue.
![[emoticon]](http://www.coastresorts.com/sharedcontent/cfb/images/smile.gif "smile")
At the service panel (ONLY AT THE SERVICE PANEL - HUGELY IMPORTANT) the neutral bus bar is bonded to ground. So you should see the ground lead and neutral tied to the same bus (the neutral bus bar). Based on your description it sounds like your panels are wired correctly, but it just doesn't "look right" based on how the other panel is made up. I can completely understand how this can seem incorrect from a common sense perspective.
However, any sub-panel after the primary service from there MUST have an isolated neutral. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT bond neutral to ground in a sub-panel.
Why is this? When you tie neutral to earth ground in a subpanel, you're created a potential parallel path for current to return via earth (ground) - so in the event of a fault, your ground conductor has assumed the role of the return path for current and now everything that you've grounded (sub-panel, appliances, metal fixtures, etc) to that sub-panel is now hot.
All it takes is a preexisting fault, one rainstorm, or wet feet, whatever... and you touching something energized - and you're doing the 60 cycle shuffle.
A fast way to determine if this jumper wire is in there rather than a true earth ground connection...
With an AC voltmeter measure line (hot) to neutral. Then measure hot to earth ground.
The two readings must not be identical.
From the school of hard knocks
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The two readings must not be identical.
The two readings must not be identical.
Having been trained in electricity and electronic by the US Navy (6 months specialist school) and also done a lot of household electrical wiring most of my life - wired entire houses - I do not understand why you say the two reading must NOT be identical?? Ground and neutral are the same electrical point in a main panel which means the reading would and should always be the exact same. Can you explain why you say they must NOT be the same? I have never in my life heard of this. Do you mean if it is "bootstrap" they would not be the same?
We do carry a 4 foot grounding rod to pound into the ground if we find no ground at a pedestal. But this is a pain and can be difficult to do so I will wander the RV park checking pedestals to find one that has good ground. If one pedestal has good ground then it is possible the wires exist in other pedestals but are not attached correctly. I then open the box to look inside to see what has been done and whether it is possible to correct the problem - not for someone who does not KNOW how to mess around with electricity. In many cases we find that pedestals have been wired by people who do not know the rules and I can go in to correct the wiring. In some cases entire RV parks in Mexico are incorrectly wired.
As brought up in comments above - if an RV park connects neutral and ground in a pedestal they should also be pounding a ground rod at the pedestal to provide the required ground. As stated in the code book I posted the only place ground and neutral should be wired together is at the main panel. Wiring at the pedestal or "bootstrap" can feed live voltage to the neutral in certain situations. The only way this can technically work is if there is also a ground rod at the pedestal as well as at the main panel.
* This post was edited 08/22/17 08:05am by briansue *
Because of a solid rock ridge I had to use a 2nd ground point in Flores de Las Penas. Then tie all seven sites to the 2nd point.
Even so, the 1st site had .4 - .7 volt difference between L1-LO versus L1 to earth ground. Site 2 was closer to one volt difference.
Chances of it being 0.0 are almost mil. I have found too many parks with bootstrap grounds. The owners invariably offer the excuse that "It satisfies the customer when they plug their little colored lights tester into the receptacle"
Do you realize you lose >50% of the protective circuit when an earth path is not there? MOVs and TVS components need a dual path to be effective if the consumer circuit is 3-wire.
You can satisfy your own curiosity about this on your next trip south. Do the receptacle test yourself. Pull the receptacle if necessary to check for a L0 to earth ground jumper.
I used a three burner electric range to verify phase to earth viability. Through a 20 amp breaker and 12 gauge wire. Direct short from phase to earth. Each receptacle. This is how I verified a 18" ground rod pounded 12" - 14" into the earth makes a wonderful verified ground. Below that was solid rock. The trick? Saturate the area around the stake with water. This makes a great dedicated rig bonding point. I use an 8 gauge green wire simply for mechanical strength. A hose clamp is used for a strain relief. The wire was soldered to a length of varilla, re-bar. Top 4" was elled for a driver spot and yank out.
The earth ground verifier does not have to open a breaker to prove it's point. Use a makeup receptacle and wire it in series with a phase. This proofs a shorter ground rod will do the job. just wet it down every third day. If ground integrity is lost the heater or a hair dryer will not operate.
In particularly sandy areas away from a beach a short varilla can be exchanged for a longer one. Just make sure the ground is thoroughly wet.
My ground system burned the underground twist and tape park circuit at Boca de iguanas. An idiot electrician came in and worked on the main panel. He did a reconnect with reversed L1 L0. Smoke rolled out of the access plates on the ground. 1960's truck camper of mine had neutral bonded to the vehicle chassis.
A real hoot was the 1997 tour of Barra de Navidad's Gran Bay Hotel. Our tour took us up the elevator shaft to the thousand dollar a day presidential suite. I looked at a few unconnected receptacle sockets. you guessed it. One blue, one brown wire. But the suite had his n her bedside telephones and a TV placed low in the wall - right across from the toilet seat.
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