Another dreamer here, I want to buy a short class C motorhome in about a year if finances permit it. I want a very traditional one such as the Minnie Winnie 22R, a Freelander 19CB, or maybe that new Freelander 20CB that's built on a Ford Transit platform. Used but not old, 2013 or up. I like these models because they're small, but still have 3 separate beds if I travel with my brother and my mom.
In the meantime, I've been doing much research on these models, and motorhomes in general. I came upon this article that kind of scared me:
The RV Industry's Dirty Litle Secret: Quality
The author paints a very pessimistic picture, that the whole RV industry is a scam. Salesmen peddling shiny boxes on wheels, but the basic design is flawed an that they all will leak in short time.
However, the article must be old, because it's all about luan construction and rubber coated roofs. Todays RV's use composite walls such as Azdel, and fiberglass rooftops. So hopefully things aren't as bad as the article makes it out to be. I know about the BornFree brand of motorhomes, but they're just too dang expensive.
So now a just have a few specific questions about the design of class C's. First of all, do they have some kind of metal framework underneath that holds the whole thing together? Winnebago is the only one who points out their "SuperStructure".
![[image]](http://winnebagoind.com/binaries/content/gallery/wgohippoproject/keyfeatures/gallery/superstructure1.jpg/superstructure1.jpg/wgohippoproject%3Amediadisplay)
I was happy to see that their metal framework extends into the cabover sleeper. Do the other makes have a similar framework? It would seem dangerous to me, to have the entire cabover portion constructed of wood beams and studs. If the cabover was to suffer some rot, and somebody decides to sleep up there while the RV is in motion, heck the whole thing could break off and the passenger goes hitting the pavement!
Next thing I was curious about are these fiberglass rooftops. In the case of say a Minnie Winnie, is it like a one piece "hard cap" similar to a Chinook or Scamp trailer? Or is it a fiberglass layer that is added the existing roof structure?
And the last question is about these composite panels they're using in place of luan. Is it true it resists delamination? I'd be taking real good care of this motorhome, keeping it covered when not in use. Plus I live in Phoenix, AZ and it's dry most of the year here. Still it's nice to know that if a small leak did occur, it wouldn't be the end of my RV.
That's all, I appreciate the help. These questions I just could not find answers to online.
Unfortunately consumers are more willing to pay for bling than they are for quality materials. So companies that build high quality units often dont last long.
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New, used, or well used, when shopping for a conventional class B+ or C, the most important consideration is how it is constructed. This post outlines construction methods which are most affordable and methods that cost more, but are built to hold up much better to the elements and also the punishment of the road.
Some motor home manufactures offer different levels of quality through their various model lines. Instead of providing a list of brands to consider, it is best to identify what "Better" is.
When shopping for a motor home, don't get distracted with what I call "Eye Candy" or "Square Footage". You want to pay close attention to how the house is constructed. Water infiltration is the number one killer of motor homes, rotting them away long before anything is worn out. Once water gets inside, it is like termites. By the time you realize there is a problem, a lot of damage has already occurred. Also consider that mold & mildew can grow inside the walls which then you have a health hazard. My advise focuses on identifying a reliably well sealed motor home.
#1 BEST (Very Expensive, Can Be 1.5 times the cost of Second Best)
NO structural seam work. The brand Coach House is a fine example. It is seamless, made from a mold. The only places where water can leak is cutouts for windows, entry door, roof-top vents & a/c unit, storage compartments & maintenance access, all of which are in areas of very low stress. Because they have a seamless shell, these motor homes have a limited selection of sizes.
#2 SECOND BEST
Common, Affordable, & comes in Many Sizes so this is my main focus
I own an example of this type. My Rig Here manufactured by Phoenix USA.
Made in sections, but assembled in a way that greatly reduces the threat of water damage. Here are the good things you want to look for.
a) Structural Seams Away From Corners
When a motor home is driven, the house bounces, resonates, shakes, and leans countless times, representing a series of extended continuous earthquakes. Corner seams see greater stresses than seams located elsewhere. Corner seams are more easily split, especially when the caulk gets brittle with age & exposure to the sun. One extremely bad bump in the road can instantly breach a corner seam. Seams hold up much better when they are brought in from the corners in lesser stressed areas.
b) A Seamless Over-The-Van Front Cap
A huge bed above the van’s roof is the most vulnerable area of a motor home. No matter how well they are made, that long frontal over-hang resonates when the RV is driven. It is common for seams to split there, most troublesome with age & exposure to the elements. HERE is a more recent example, one of many I have read. The small front aerodynamic cap of a B+ design HERE eliminates the overhang which eliminates most of the resonation, along with most seam work.
There are a few conventional “C” Designs (big over-van bed) where that area is seamless. If you absolutely must have that huge bed, then look for a seamless bucket-like design. Born Free offers a seamless bucket design as seen in This Model. The Itasca Navion Here is another fine example. Some manufactures as of late offer a partial bucket design with fewer seams located in less-stressed areas. Some manufacture models like the Minnie Winnie and the Nexus Phantom utilize a compromising partial bucket design, making it a better choice compared to a fully seamed cab-over bed.
If you plan to accommodate more than 2 people, having that large extra cab-over bed will be extremely useful.
c) A Crowned Roof
Rain and snow melt runs off a crowned roof. A flat roof will sag over time, then water puddles around heavy roof-top items like the a/c unit. Water eventually finds it's way inside after gaskets & caulk have degraded from age, sun, and change in seasons.
d) Rolled-Over-The-Edge seamless Fiberglass Roof Sheathing
A single sheet of fiberglass as shown HERE that rolls over the right & left sides of the roof, down to the wall. The overlapping of fiberglass to the wall provides a good water seal and the fiberglass sheathing holds up better than roofs made of sheet rubber or thin plastic called TPO, which require more attention to keep your RV well protected.
e) A Five Sided Rear Wall Cap
A five sided back wall moves the seams around to the sides to areas of much less stress as seen HERE. The rear wall resembles a shallow rectangular cooking pan standing on it's side. Like the example, some rear wall sections are constructed with an integrated spare tire compartment and rear storage compartment. Not only are they convenience features, but that rear wall/cap offers a solid double-wall for exceptional strength which is more resistant to flexing the adjoining seam work.
Don't be fooled. There are a select few manufactures who add rear wall sectional styling pieces over an entry level rear corner seam design which gives the appearance of a 5-sided pan design. You can easily tell by noting the sections & seams between them and the flat back wall that remains exposed.
Bigger Will Be Weaker
The size & floor plan you select MUST FIRST meet your needs before this consideration.
The bigger the house, the weaker the structure will be. Consider two cardboard boxes made from the exact same corrugated material. The smaller box would naturally be stronger. It will be more resistant to bending, twisting, and other types of flexing. So if you are on the fence between models, the smaller one will be your stronger choice.
Potentially Troublesome Construction
Entry level motor homes are made with seams in corners and finished off with trim, including the massive cab-over bed. Their roof is flat and finished with rubber or TPO. They are most affordable, and come in all sizes. HERE is one such example. If considering this construction type, keep in-mind they require more regular care with bi-annual inspections. Plan to use a caulking gun now and then. When buying a used one, consider that you really don't know how well the previous owner maintained it. Buying new or used, that construction method will be counting on you to be a good non-neglectful owner.
There are also the rare exception of the Lazy Daze which has seam work in the corners, but the substructure and sealing method is of the highest quality that it holds up like a seamless body. It's excellent sectional construction methods are not commonly found in other brands. I am no expert on this, but I'd give it a #1.5 Almost Like Best
About The Chassis
The most popular is the Ford E-Series with the V10 engine. The Sprinter diesel is a popular alternative to the E350 in the smaller sizes. Also within this past year is the recent introduction of the Ford Transit. The GM chassis is not popular, but is a very good choice for the right application. Any of these chassis made since 1998 are real good, new or used. If you plan to tow a car or heavy trailer, be aware that the Sprinter & Transit will be least powered. People who tow with them naturally take it slower.
If considering a current-day “small” class B+ or C motor home, here is a comparison between the two current main contenders, the Sprinter with the V6 diesel engine and the Ford E350 with the V10 gasoline engine.
Advantages Of The Mercedes Sprinter With Diesel Engine
- Offers a 35%-50% improvement in fuel economy over the Ford-V10, when both are loaded and driven identically.
- More ergonomic driver compartment with more leg room.
- Comfort continues with a car-like feel & quiet ride.
- A grander view out the windshield
- Made by Mercedes which people are attracted to.
Advantages Of The Ford E350 with V10 Engine
- Given identical motor homes both brand and model, the Ford is around $13,000 MSRP cheaper
- The Ford V10 engine has 50% more horse power and torque
- The Ford E350 chassis handles 1430 pounds more weight.
- The E350 is able to tow a heavier load.
- The E350 rear axle is significantly wider which translates to better stability.
- In most places traveled, gasoline costs less than diesel fuel
- The Sprinter diesel has limited mechanical service shops around North America
- The Sprinter diesel is typically outfitted with a propane generator. Propane is a critical fuel for RV operations, and generally needs to be rationed when dry camping.
- This Next Point Is Debatable But Still Worth Noting....The V6 Sprinter diesel engine is not allowed to idle for extended periods. This limitation is detrimental when you need a/c but there are generator restrictions or you are dangerously low on propane, or you have a mechanical failure with the generator or roof a/c. The Ford V10 can safely idle for hours on end, heating, cooling, and battery charging, all valuable if you have a baby, pets, or health/respiratory issues.
You decide what your priorities are, and pick the appropriate chassis. There are some really sweet motor homes being built exclusively on the Sprinter chassis, such as the Winnebago Via, View and View Profile. Others like Phoenix USA build their model 2350 and 2400 on both the Sprinter and Ford E350. They will even build it on the heaviest duty E450 upon request for a nominal fee. People who request an E450 for a small motor home, tow heavier things like for example, a multi-horse trailer. You can even special order a E350 & E450 4x4.
There is so much cool stuff offered in recent years on the Sprinter and most recently on the new Ford Transit.
The Ford Transit Chassis
This chassis has the potential to dominate the class B+ & C motor home market in the smaller sizes. According to Ford's website, the Transit DRW chassis is offered in the 156", and 178" wheel base, and is rated as high as 10,360 GVWR. Ford offers a motor home package specific for the RV industry. It's diesel engine compares to the Sprinter in power and fuel economy, but is more affordable and is easily serviced at Ford service centers, just like the E350/E450. The cab has a much lower stance than the Sprinter making it much more friendly to get into and out from for people in their later years. It's more like a mini-van rather than a standard van. The Transit's lower cab also offers roomier over-head bunks that are easier to access.
The Dodge Promaster 3500 Cut-Away Chassis
This front wheel drive chassis is another recent entry in the RV industry. I am concerned over it's lack of load capability as reflected with single free-wheeling rear wheels. I have been reading posts written by new Promaster RV owners stating they are over-weight with just two people, some personal effects and food. They say they can't carry water and never a 3rd person. I would not be comfortable with such a limited load range in a B+ or C. This chassis does seem ideal for the straight "B" motor home market.
The Chevy 3500/4500 Chassis
Unfortunately this chassis is not more popular, primarily because GM sort-of gave up on competing with the Ford E350/E450. It offers more interior comfort than the Ford, but not as much as the Sprinter. It's power & weight ratings are a little less than their Ford counter-parts making them a great chassis for all but the heaviest of class Cs. They are also a little better on fuel consumption. One thing to keep in-mind, if you are counting inches in storing your rig, the Chevy is a little longer than the Ford by a number of inches which was critical for us with our garage as seen HERE with our Ford 2007 E350 rig. That could be the reason why the Chevy has a little more interior driver/passenger leg room.
Engine Power Ratings of Ford, MB-Sprinter, Chevy, and Dodge
Ford E350/E450 - 6.8L-V10, 305hp, 420ft
Ford Transit Diesel - 3.2L-I5, 185hp, 350ft
Mercedes Sprinter Diesel - 3.0L-V6, 188hp, 325ft
Chevy 3500/4500 - 6.0L-V8, 323hp, 373ft
Dodge Promaster - 3.6L-V6 (GVW only 9,300 pounds)
* This post was last edited 08/16/16 05:46am by ron.dittmer *
2007 Phoenix Cruiser model 2350, with 2006 Jeep Liberty in-tow
![[image]](http://www.irv2.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/PB271619-1024x768.jpg)
Typical Class-C frame. Built on a truck frame.
About that article you referenced, I think most of it is coming from a very biased individual who is trying to bloister his own choice of RV. Granted, there are some legitimate ideas he presents, but they also have to be taken with a grain of salt and there is STILL the user responsibility for care and maintenance.
Drive your brand new car around for 1 year without washing it, inflating the tires, doing the routene oil changes and fill the tank with good gasoline and see how long it last too. Same is true with any RV. They are only as good as their owner keeps them. That's the bottom line. And yes .... every one of them is a money pit, expensive hobby, that requires lots and lots of attention to maintain.
One thing the article did say that I do agree with.... Unlike a stick and built home, and RV bounces down the road at 70 mph. This will get shook up! What do you expect?
If CLASS-C were built THAT shoddy, no one would ever buy them. So think about that? RV sales of all types, are extremely strong and showing no signs of slowing down. If the industry was THAT bad, there simply would not be an industry, they'd all be out of business from lack of sales. Think about it.
When reading reviews, you've always got to consider the source and which glasses they are looking through. For every 1 negative response, there are a multitudes of positive experiences that never get reported.
Yes, RVs need to be maintained. You need to check for leaks after the first rain of the season and preferably after every heavy rain thereafter. At the first sign of a leak, you fix it. You don't let it leak for months and then claim the RV was "defective" because there was water pooling up under the mattress.
As ron.dittmer points out, there are various grades of build that can reduce your potential for issues. But even if you go with the least of them, you can have years of happy RVing by just being observant and keeping up with general maintenance. Re-caulking seams and windows and vents on a regular basis (yearly, etc., depending on the individual needs) can prevent most of those problems. And a single incident of a leak is not going to destroy the RV - that's why checking after the first and any heavy rains is important, because you can stop a leak before it has a chance to turn into mold and rot.
1975 American Clipper RV with Dodge 360 (photo in profile)
1998 American Clipper Fold n Roll Folding Trailer
Both born in Morgan Hill, CA to Irv Perch (Daddy of the Aristocrat trailers)
I would like to challenge you to do 2 things:
1. Stop focusing on negatives about RV's and looking for the bad things about them.
2. Take ron.dittmer information above and start looking for the positives in each brand / model you are considering. (what do they have to offer that a different brand does not). Then, look for the "good" things in them, and then look for the same good things that are a bit "better" in the next make / model. By focusing on the positives, and looking for the "good, the better, and the best" you'll begin to take on new appreciation for what you are contemplating in purchasing that CLASS-C. Abandon that mind-set of bad,worse, and worst or you'll forever be nit-picking any brand / model you finally settle on and never truly be happy with it.
The cabover on any class C is not designed for occupancy while in motion. There are a few reasons for this. First, it is a very vulnerable location in the event of a crash. While crashworthiness is not a strong point of motorhomes in general, the spot exposed at the top of the front with nothing securing one in is worse than pretty much anywhere else in the RV. Second, the framework of a cabover is designed to support the weight of a person when the RV is not bouncing around on the road, but not the much higher dynamic loads that having the weight there would impose when going over a large bump.
Most fiberglass roofs are basically flat sheets of fibreglass set over a substrate of plywood, basically like a rubber or TPO roof made of fiberglass. The details of how this is attached to the tops of the walls vary somewhat. Very few class C's have a molded fiberglass roof like a Scamp trailer.
A rubber roof can last many years with proper maintenance (far more than ten years in many areas). A TPO roof is more durable still, and fiberglass properly built better yet. Any one will require proper maintenance and keeping up with the sealant aging at seams and penetrations.
(You aren't going to find any pre-2013 Transit based RVs in the US, of course, since Ford didn't sell the vehicle here until then.)
Each region has it's own challenges. Florida adds humidity & rain into the heat, many areas with snow and such. It's hard to accommodate ideal motor home protection.
DrewE wrote:
The cabover on any class C is not designed for occupancy while in motion. There are a few reasons for this. First, it is a very vulnerable location in the event of a crash. While crashworthiness is not a strong point of motorhomes in general, the spot exposed at the top of the front with nothing securing one in is worse than pretty much anywhere else in the RV. Second, the framework of a cabover is designed to support the weight of a person when the RV is not bouncing around on the road, but not the much higher dynamic loads that having the weight there would impose when going over a large bump.
The cabover on any class C is not designed for occupancy while in motion. There are a few reasons for this. First, it is a very vulnerable location in the event of a crash. While crashworthiness is not a strong point of motorhomes in general, the spot exposed at the top of the front with nothing securing one in is worse than pretty much anywhere else in the RV. Second, the framework of a cabover is designed to support the weight of a person when the RV is not bouncing around on the road, but not the much higher dynamic loads that having the weight there would impose when going over a large bump.
I disagree with this comment to a large extent. The weight of a person in the cabover bunk while driving down the road is NOT going to be enough to stress the cabover while going over a large bump. Many many many people have used the cabover for storage and have exceeded the weight of a single person without issue - I have never heard of anyone having the cabover become structurally damaged due to putting weight in it while traveling.
I do agree with the safety issue (although I grew up riding in the cabover of a truck camper) and wouldn't recommend sleeping in it while traveling.
And quite frankly, that's the answer. If all RVs had the quality we expect, few of us could afford to have them. So they make so that we can afford them. And we have to live with that or not have an RV.
And like your house or car, they need maintenance. It's not hard to check the seals twice a year. It's not hard to clean the roof membrane and keep it in good condition. Apparently the guy that wrote that article was expecting perfection and a maintenance free experience and now he's bitter that he didn't get either.
One thing I do agree with is comments about fit and finish. Attention to detail, the little things, would make RVs a lot nicer when new.
Chuck D.
“Adventure is just bad planning.” - Roald Amundsen
2013 Jayco X20E Hybrid
2016 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab Z71 LTZ2
2008 GMC Sierra SLE1 Crew Cab Z71 (traded)
tjfogelberg wrote:
The smaller Winnebagos are good choices. 22R and 25B both VG. Counter space is very limited in the 25B but you could put inserts over 1 or both sinks and also get a folding cover for the stovetop. The 3 sleeping areas (actually 4) in the 25 B are amazing for an RV only 27' long. Read all the good info here carefully and you'll do fine.
For the OP with 3 adults traveling, each wanting their own bed, I favor the 22R. With the shorter 23'-10" over-all length, they should be able to get by without a tow vehicle. The only issue with the 22R are the water/waste/propane capacities. Three adults will need to take navy showers to make it work without hook-ups. And so little a propane tank would be an issue if doing high altitude and Canadian camping where the furnace is used often at night. Also, it is not clear how much cabinet space there is for 3 adults worth of clothing and such.The smaller Winnebagos are good choices. 22R and 25B both VG. Counter space is very limited in the 25B but you could put inserts over 1 or both sinks and also get a folding cover for the stovetop. The 3 sleeping areas (actually 4) in the 25 B are amazing for an RV only 27' long. Read all the good info here carefully and you'll do fine.
But still a very nice floor plan.
For Phoenix AZ, be sure to get a very light colored exterior to reduce radiant heat.
The perverse result of this is that the industry builds coaches that appeal to non-RVers on the sales lot. Too many are poorly designed, poorly built, and overloaded from the start.
There are a few niche manufacturers who do things differently. Most new RV shoppers think their products are overpriced and undersized.
And Ron, what a gorgeous coach you own. You must drive down the highway with pride!